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Old 04-22-2009, 07:59 PM   #21
BriarRose
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
How many thousands of lives were saved by torturing for information to find other terrorists? None as far as I can tell. The very idea is disgusting.

The US just has one more thing to be ashamed of. Its not like this is all that rare and we are somehow better than others. We are just one nation among many no better or worse. There was a time when I felt different but no longer.

That said, I say let it drop unless we plan to take on those who ordered it and we all know that will never happen.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:01 PM   #22
ghead1
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/20...-intelligence/

this is the article I posted about earlier, which reports a lot of detail from the 9-11 commission report, regarding the types of info obtained from interrogations.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:03 PM   #23
lizzie
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghead1 View Post
Well, we've talked the economy to death, let's start another light conversation.

What is your opinion on whether or not the Obama administration should investigate/prosecute the torture allegations against the Bush administration?
Yes, of course we should investigate and prosecute anyone who tortures beyond the instructions given by the Bush administration. Using much the same standards as we did for prosecuting Nazis who tortured.

We should also prosecute for treason anyone who was involved in outing an undercover CIA agent.

We should also prosecute people who lied.

In fact, the crimes of the Nixon administration are NOTHING compared to those of the Bush administration. They should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Has everyone noticed that Cheney is the spokesperson for the Bush administration. I wonder if that is because he was the puppetmaster pulling Bush's strings (I think he was).
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:31 PM   #24
lexicon
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
hmmm, I'm recalling what these terrorists did to their prisoners. Oh right, they beheaded them!

Good specifics ghead. Perhaps we're discussing torture and prisoners in too much generality.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:40 PM   #25
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
So we should lower ourselves to their level or even lower? Ask any POW if we should allow torture.

Torture is not a reliable method of gaining information. This has been proven. It's use is mainly based upon the frustrations and insanity of war. It is as supportable as whipped cream in the hot summer sun.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:45 PM   #26
BriarRose
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
“hmmm, I'm recalling what these terrorists did to their prisoners” You don’t know that at all. Name three tortured ‘terrorists’ and give me the names of the people they tortured please. What exactly do you recall about each of those men who were tortured? Please be specific and give examples.

Lex if you logic is to be followed then Iraqis have the right to rape and kill people here since we had some soldiers who did that in Iraq.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:01 PM   #27
CheroCreek
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
During WW2 the Germans used torture and provided less than the standards of the Geneva convention outlined for the treatment of prisoners. When the German POWs went home after the war they were embarrassed to discover that their fatherland did not treat the Allied prisoners with the same degree of humanity that the Allies gave the German POWs.

This is a fact that made us some positive headway at one time. Now, between Bush's "preemptive" strike based upon falsehoods and Cheny's defense of torture, I can see it will be a long time till our moral stature is taken seriously by the world at large.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:55 PM   #28
lexicon
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
I'm not advocating for any and all torture. I'm supporting what methods the US military used to gain information used to avert future attacks and catch known terrorists in Iraq. I don't recall the names, but two people who were beheaded was aired (in part) on tv.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:05 PM   #29
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
lexi --

"Do you honestly believe that any prisoner Islamic, Al-Quada, Ji had, whichever is going to willing surrender information? Why should they?"

Well, actually, they do and they did. The LA Tower plot, which Bush hailed as a result of harsh interrogation methods, was actually cracked in 2002 without the use of torture. We never tortured Saddam and we got good information out of him. When his interrogator left to return to America, the Butcher of Bagdad cried. If torture is so great, why wasn't Saddam tortured?

"I don't recall the names, but two people who were beheaded was aired (in part) on tv."

Daniel Pearle.

lexi, torture is illegal. George Washington executed American soldiers who tortured British prisoners. In 230 years of American history, torture has never been official US policy. Until George Bush. Or Dick Cheney. After WW2, we executed and imprisoned German and Japanese soldiers that have done exactly what we have done to detainees in the GWOT. We have tortured thousands. Over a hundred have died, that we know about. 36 are totally unaccounted for.

"I'm supporting what methods the US military used to gain information used to avert future attacks and catch known terrorists in Iraq."

It was never about good methods of getting information. Professional Interrogators know that torture doesn't work well. Again, think about it. You are a captured high-ranking Al Quada terrorist with knowledge of an impending attack. What do you tell your torturers? If you are willing, it's not a long walk.

Steamy is right. This was political. It was about power. They took an American citizen, held him without charges, and tortured him. They broke his mind. If they could do it to him, they could do it to me. Or you. Then they came for the Republicans.

It was a wedge issue. Something to fire up the base and get reelected.

BTW, there was a reason that we keep beating regimes that torture. I wonder if it is still true?
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:22 AM   #30
lexicon
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Re: Do we prosecute torture?
Do I think torture is barbaric? yes

Do I think the US military is defending against crazies? yes

Do I think the Taliban, Al Quada, Jihad will torture? yes

Do I think those forementioned terrorists will do anything to hurt their enemies? yes

If the USA announces to the world that the USA will not torture, will it change our enemies? no
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