Home Find a professional Feedback Find out what's new at Divorce Online

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-22-2009, 04:04 PM   #11
ghead1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: really northern CA
Posts: 872
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
RT, I want you to know that I agree with every word you've written. Playing devil's advocate:

Given that most of Bush's statements regarding torture were in press conferences, speeches etc, if there is no solid evidence he knew/directed/ordered the use of torture... do you think any charges can or will be brought against him?

I think a clearer line exists with Cheney; heck, he has as much as bragged about it in recent weeks.

My supposition is that Bush may be caught up in the issue of working overtime trying to link AL Qaeda and Iraq in order to support his invasion of a sovereign country.
__________________
Our way is simple, save for the picking and choosing.

Seng T'san
ghead1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2009, 04:46 PM   #12
lexicon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Arctic
Posts: 713
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
Should the USA torture terrorists capable of killing thousands?

Well, yeah.

How many thousands of lives were saved by torturing for information to find other terrorists?
lexicon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2009, 05:15 PM   #13
RealTime
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 890
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
"How many thousands of lives were saved by torturing for information to find other terrorists?"

lexi --

I think that I can answer that question. Per Intelligence Chief Admiral Dennis Blair:

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/pr...about-torture/

"The stakes in the torture debate just shot up dramatically with the revelation last night that Obama’s intelligence chief, Dennis Blair, wrote a memo saying torture had yielded some “high value information.” "

__________________________________________


"Blair released a statement late yesterday in which he clearly stated that there is no way of knowing whether means other than torture would have obtained the same info. More important, he said the damage done to us by torture “far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security.” "

So, how many lives did torture save? Some. Not as many as it cost us to give the Islamists a recruiting tool.

FTR, I believe that torture should be seldom used and only authorized directly by the President. Afterwards, he should be should turn himself over to the Attorney General for disposition. If there was a true case for the use of torture (i.e. a ticking bomb scenario), the AG should fail to indite, the Congress should not impeach, and the American people should produce nary a murmer.
__________________
I've never met a distance athlete that wasn't running from something inside of them. Lance Armstrong
RealTime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2009, 05:20 PM   #14
RealTime
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 890
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
ghead --

"do you think any charges can or will be brought against him?"

If charges are brought against anyone, they will have to be broiught against Bush.

"My supposition is that Bush may be caught up in the issue of working overtime trying to link AL Qaeda and Iraq in order to support his invasion of a sovereign country."

And I would agree, but only up to a point. After 911 and after the Iraqi invasion, in 2005 and 2006, why were we still torturing? I would grant a period of panic, however after the Abu Ghraib pictures, there was no further excuse. He knew what was going on.

<BTW, there were worse pictures, never shown on American television. They were, however, shown on Arab TV. See above under 'Islamist recruiting tool'.
__________________
I've never met a distance athlete that wasn't running from something inside of them. Lance Armstrong
RealTime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2009, 05:26 PM   #15
lexicon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Arctic
Posts: 713
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
Realtime, war is war. Do you honestly believe that any prisoner Islamic, Al-Quada, Ji had, whichever is going to willing surrender information? Why should they? These prisoners have sworn on their death to kill Americans.

I support our military. Let the military do their job.

I don't think the USA, thinking in hindsight, should have involved itself/ourselves in the Middle East, because there will never be peace in the Middle East. As long as we're there with cut-throats, suicide bombers, terrorists our military needs the authority and command to do their job.

Not to argue with you, but I stand by the torture inflicted to find those responsible for 911 and future terrorist acts.
lexicon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2009, 05:37 PM   #16
2ndWind
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,339
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealTime View Post
After 911 and after the Iraqi invasion, in 2005 and 2006, why were we still torturing? I would grant a period of panic, however after the Abu Ghraib pictures, there was no further excuse. He (Bush) knew what was going on.
Don't you think it was Cheney's idea? Not even Rumsfeld seemed as bent on this as Cheney was. He seemed to have an overpowering presence when it came to convincing Bush of his views. Either that or Bush was in the mere background during all of this.
2ndWind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2009, 05:47 PM   #17
ghead1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: really northern CA
Posts: 872
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
"I support our military. Let the military do their job."

I also support the military, Lexi.

But, the military (all branches) opposed these techniques from the beginning. The procedures used violated many of their own operating guidelines. Some sources indicate that when the military counsel began investigating the issues covered in the memos, they were ordered to "drop it".

Besides, it seems that most of the torture/interrogation was NOT performed by military personnel. A larger concern (to me)is that some of it may have been done by private contracters, who seem to be above any kind of law. (Look at how hard it was to bring Blackwater employees to heel in Iraq)

And yes, there are many instances documented of these prisoners voluntarily giving up information; in some cases primarily BECAUSE they were treated with respect, and not tortured. I think it is still important to remember that these individuals had not been found guilty of ANYTHING, many of them weren't even terrorists.

Where does that leave us?
__________________
Our way is simple, save for the picking and choosing.

Seng T'san
ghead1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2009, 06:51 PM   #18
steamy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 855
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
Should we criminalize policy differences? Is this politicing or in the best interest of the country. When it is hard to tell it makes me uneasy!

Very slippery slope this one.
__________________
I am so disappointed a group of squid is not called a squad."
steamy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2009, 07:07 PM   #19
Bluefish
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny San Diego area
Posts: 771
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealTime View Post
Chero --

Yes. While the President was proclaiming,"We do not torture" about Abu Ghraib, he was approving much worse treatment for prisoners. It's pretty difficult to believe that the activities at Abu Ghraib were just the work of 'A few bad apples on the night shift'.
I suppose W would say, "it depends on what the meaning of torture is." His slippery slope, I'm afraid. He did a good job keeping the country safe, but fooled himself about why he was successful, and overstepped the bounds of human decency.
Bluefish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2009, 07:34 PM   #20
ghead1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: really northern CA
Posts: 872
Re: Do we prosecute torture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by steamy View Post
Should we criminalize policy differences? Is this politicing or in the best interest of the country. When it is hard to tell it makes me uneasy!

Very slippery slope this one.

That's why I brought that issue up in the OP steamer... If there is to be something done, it needs to be on the basis of law, not politics.

BUT, I disagree with your portrayal of this as "policy differences". It's not like a disagreement over gas taxes or something. This is a straightforward effort at justifying acts which were already known to be illegal (thus, the military objection).

I would be honestly interested in your brother's opinion, coming from his FBI background. From what I recall, this isn't his area of expertise, but I'm sure in all his years he has had some training on interrogations.

I think RT had a good point, that if there was a ticking bomb scenario, you may "do it, declare it, and hope for the best".

There is an interesting disclosure about the kind of info elicited from the 2 guys who were extensively waterboarded, by Marcy Wheeler at Firedoglake.com Most of it sounds like detail about PAST actions like recruiting, rather than info on future activites.
__________________
Our way is simple, save for the picking and choosing.

Seng T'san
ghead1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:56 PM.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2010, American Divorce Information Network. All rights reserved