Listening vs Communicating

[zuzuzu]

I posted on another thread and found myself walking a fine line between emphathy/listening and offering ideas on what to do in a situation. I'm sensitive right now because I was contacted yesterday by a dear girlfriend who was angry with me for being "judgmental, critical" and for "needing to fix things".

Apparently, she shared a certain difficult situation. I listened but then did switch to "idea" mode. I try VERY hard not to say "you should", "you need to..." but rather pad my thoughts with "perhaps you could" or "have you thought about". My language still was too strong, in her view.

In posting here, I just saw that I used a lot of "if you want to", "if you believe..." to honor the poster's right to disagree. I don't want or intend to force my "solutions" on anyone else, ever.

My girlfriend said that she shouldn't have brought up the difficult topic and I disagreed with her. I said that friends need to be able to share what they are going through; however, boundaries are appropriate to either correct or disagree, or to say that the topic needs to be tabled. I can't imagine having topics "off limits" with close friends. I do believe boundaries may need to be in place if someone just wants a shoulder to lean on, but no ideas for solutions.

When she finally asked me if we could change the topic, once she became upset, I said "abolutely" and we moved on. However, the question remains: If one person shares a situation with someone else, but only wants to vent and doesn't want to hear another's views, wouldn't that be simple to say? If you don't say you just want to unload, but then take offense that you think I'm trying to "fix" you by offering comment, isn't that eliminating any real conversation?

In a nutshell, I think my friend has some significant boundary issues and she was trying to blame me. I apologized for my apparent judgmental and "fix it" stance; however, deep down I don't think I did anything wrong. Can I learn something here that I need to learn? I'm open!

I was venting but also am open to responses ..... just so you know!!

[zuzuzu]

Oh, and my apology to her was sincere because she felt hurt. That is valid and I was genuinely sorry to hear how upset she was. My "didnt do anything wrong" comment is for me to understand what healthy communication looks like. She felt hurt, thus the apology was called for.

[zirelda]

Sometimes it is hard to tell when someone just wants you to listen vs giving them an opinion or helping them find a solution.

[zuzuzu]

I agree, Z. I have no problem just listening if someone wants to vent. OTOH, to bring up a topic that I have experience with (the topic was step-parenting; her D's visitation is difficult) and expect me to say nothing seems unrealistic. Simply tell me that you need time to think things over, but thanks anyway ..... Then change the topic.

[pbj12]

I have friends that often call/email and just want to vent. I am fully aware that if I offer advice they usually ignore it. So, mostly I just lend my ear.

With some friends, who are always complaining about something being wrong or a relationship that they are unhappy in, it takes a ton of strength to not tell them what a moron they are. (And no, I don't say "you are a moron." However, when you tell an adult how to handle something, or what they should or shouldn't be doing, you're basically telling them they can't handle it.)

I'm sure you mean well when you are giving advice. We all do. We like to think we are being helpful, supportive, a good friend. She clearly doesn't want you to give her advice on whatever situation it was. No, she didn't say it. However, most people don't prequalify chats with: "This is a vent, I don't want your opinion." So perhaps the next time she is talking about a situation you have advice about, you could say "Would you like to hear my thoughts?"

[Theo!]

Welcome to the world of Men. If we hear a squeaky wheel we grease it. Appropriately, the wheel rarely complains.

Women are more complicated.

[magic-cat]

My own opinion is that if someone doesn't start off with a qualifier of some sort, ("Pardon me, but I really need to vent about this for a couple of moments"), then it should be a safe assumption that what is taking place is a conversation. Last time I checked, a conversation meant that both people had input, and not just one of them.

zuzu, I'm surprised she called you to be "angry" about your response. I can understand someone calling to say they are "disappointed" or "hurt" at a lack of compassion or empathy, but using a friend to vent all over and then getting angry at them for not handling it the way she wants... gosh.

Why didn't she just call to let you know you could have spoken, but she required it to be in early middle-French verse? Or that you should have responded only with vignettes of interpretive dance?

It's alright to vent on people -- that's human. But to lay stipulations on exactly how we insist they should respond to us... well, that seems a tad 'off' to me.

[ghead1]

oh my... I was just having this conversation with my sister on the phone. As regards my mom.

I said: if mom just needs to blow off steam and vent, then that's OK by me. Sometimes it's the repeated blowing off that helps you to identify the issue that is bothering you... enough to decide you want ot change it.

She said: it's not enough, if she keeps going over the same ground and not making any changes. Especially, maybe someone bsides her daughters would be better for that.

The three of us had gotten together Friday to talk about my dad: his health, his bad attitude, and how to help mom cope. I was fine with just talking, and hoping we could reassure mom that we support her and encourage her to aske for help more often. Sis, halfway through the "meeting" had her pad and pencil out and wanted to make a list of "action items".

Much like on DOL, I think it's OK to vent sometimes. And I see nothing wrong with prefacing it with "I just want to vent. You don't have to offer solutions. However, you also shouldn't completely dismiss my subject."

I also pad my conversations with "If I were you" or "you might consider" or "this might not work for everyone"... because I formerly used very strong, opinionated language about EVERYTHING, and I found that I was just one big walkign opinion.

[zuzuzu]

theo, I seem to have some of the "guy" tendency to want to fix things. I know that about myself.

magic-cat, yeah, my friend seemed to have a lot of stipulations for me. There were 5 of us at my house to get together as a group of girlfriends. My girlfriend was concerned that not everyone got the same amount of time to talk. Huh? Since when does a social occassion have rules for equal time in the conversation? I think that someone who wanted to say something would need to chime in and say they have something to tell us about. It really struck me as too controlling about what was a group of ladies getting together to talk and catch up with each other.

One of my goals is to be respectful toward others, even in disagreement. In this situation, I think there are issues that are not mine; I don't want to avoid my own problems but I sure don't need to pick up any that don't "belong" to me. I've got plenty of my own!!!

[magic-cat]

pbj, two things:

1) I'm actually one of those people who does say, "I really just need to complain about this for a couple of minutes."

2) I'll pay you a buck if you actually say to the next person, "You're a moron!" :D





Women are more complicated.

Yes, Theo!, and we intend to keep it that way.

We're also going to make sure you never have access to the underground femme manual, "A Field Guide to Women - How to Interpret Their Language and Thoughts, (or: Why They Change that Damned Code Every Day!)". The man who wrote it met with a rather mysterious end.

[magic-cat]

In this situation, I think there are issues that are not mine;

I agree completely.

[zuzuzu]

Personally, I believe that people with poor boundaries often are hurt easily. I know it is hard for my girlfriend to "protect" herself so she stays silent until she gets angry. Then she tells the other person they walked all over her (blaming). The real trick is to speak up to say "no more" when things get sensitive.

With couples, whether same sex friends or otherwise, I think we need to practice being clear about what we can tolerate and stop things if/when we don't want any more. If we give ourselves this kind of control, then we truly are responisible for our own happiness. No one else can read our minds and we can't expect others to honor our needs if we don't articulate them. Of course, we don't always know we need to say anything until such time as we realize we don't like what's occurring. But isn't it enough, then, to speak up?

Why is it so hard for people to set boundaries? In my girlfriends case, I know she thinks she is supposed to smile through anything and be "nice". Wrong. Being a doormat never has a good ending since you will inevitably get dirty.

[Tiddly]

sometimes though I know people who just want me to tell them what they want to hear! If you don't then they get upset. So, I guess it is best to just listen and ONLY give advice when asked.

[Theo!]

I wish I could give you a rep point for that post Zuzu, but it appears I'm fresh out.

[Phoebe]

Zuzu, I am glad you posted this. The other night, I just wanted to vent to my husband. He kept interupting me and advised me how to take care of that problem. I lost my interest to vent. I explained to him to just listen to me and let me vent. He feels that he is giving me feedback. I said, I don't want feedback, just someone to LISTEN to me.

My husband feels that it is essential in a relationship to give each other feedback. I can appreciate his willingness to support me and give me feedback. There are times thou, where I just want to yak, yak, and yak!!!!

However, I think a person can only tolerate the same vent over and over to the point of not discussing it anymore. My thread about Bermie is an example of that. In the beginning, many different people gave me advice. Nowadays, its limited people. I am not complaining because I know that some people are sick and tired of my thread. I was even told to go to another forum.

I do understand both sides. It is not your fault if your friend's issues are not being resolved. You have nothing to do with her problem, other than just listening to it. And it is also perfectly alright to say to her, I really don't want to hear about your problem anymore because there isn't anything I can do for you and I am tired of hearing it.

[pbj12]

MC--1. yeah, me too. But I think that's a learned behavior now.
2. What if the next person is my boss?!?:o

zuzu, it really looks to me like this friend has more than just a few issues. She'd be one of my friends that I'd just smile and nod at from now on.

[willowtree]

I'm also one of those "fix it" type women. Maybe we aren't as rare as you think, Theo, or.... maybe you guys just aren't that special! :D <wink, wink, nudge, nudge, gentle respectful joking meant (just to protect my stellar rep!)>


I hear you, zuzu. It often feels like I have to walk on eggshells in order to have "conversation" with my daughter, as it feels to me like she wants only certain responses out of me, whether that is what is in my head, or not.

I often don't know whether I am having trouble making my thoughts come out right, or whether she is having trouble hearing me through her own set of interpretations.

I do tend to be one that wants to be an active participant in the conversation. I know that I am often at fault for not hearing a vent for what it is - I have solutions, dammit, I've been on DOL long enough that I have all the answers! :eek: Like pbj, I sometimes get to the point of holding in my comments.

I think I look at your particular situation in several ways. Whether or not you gave your friend exactly the response she was looking for, it was inappropriate for her to come back with a criticism of your listening skills. She didn't give you guidelines to begin with - and no-one is a mind reader.

I do think, that given how we all speak and hear through our own filters, it IS appropriate to state up front "I just want to vent..." and when answering "Do you want me to give my opinion?"

With my daughter, I have found that it still doesn't always work, as she wants my opinion but only when it matches what she wants to hear. So I continue to walk a tightrope, but I refuse to accept blame as I always ask her first, and several times down the line now. In the past, I'm sure I WAS one big walking opinion along with ghead.

[zuzuzu]

pbj, yeah, there is a lot of drama... It's funny that I can look at her family history and see where some of the issues might have originated. She was raised by a woman other than her mother, was divorced after a tumultuous marriage, adopted two kids one of whom committed suicide. Her father is abusive and she has siblings who cut themselves off from one another regularly. Very difficult stuff. I try to have compassion for a lot of the issues but I really need to set limits of my own with her.

It's tricky: she is a lovely lady on many levels but her issues certainly do cloud her friendships. While there is a group of 5 of us who have gotten together over the years, I seem to be the "lightning rod" for a lot of stuff.

[zuzuzu]

It's weird. One of her favorite modes of speaking is to share something really difficult (e.g., a boss who hates her, her house flooded, etc.) but then say "but it's OK". Like asking for support but then immediately saying she doesn't need it. I find it quite frustrating actually to be a part of conversations like this.

[willowtree]

Ooooh, that's passive-aggressively looking for approval.

[pbj12]

I guess we all have a friend like that. Always something wrong, but no action on making it better. I try not to be a fixer anymore. It just takes too much energy. And there are far better ways for me to spend my energy then trying to help someone who doesn't really want help.

[Theo!]

It's weird. One of her favorite modes of speaking is to share something really difficult (e.g., a boss who hates her, her house flooded, etc.) but then say "but it's OK". Like asking for support but then immediately saying she doesn't need it. I find it quite frustrating actually to be a part of conversations like this.

I have a hard time with this kind of conversation too, because it's not truly a conversation. I knew a woman who used to go from one disjointed thought to another without ever explaining where she was going or how she was getting there. The end result was that I didn't feel included or even relevant to the conversation and after awhile I learned to tune her out. It was like she was having a conversation with herself that only she could follow (although I was expected to somehow keep up), because she was only verbalizing half of it. She seemed to think it was a cute little mannerism that was part of her personality. I found it extremely disrespectful and aggrivating.

[magic-cat]

2. What if the next person is my boss?!?:o



Then I'll give you five bucks! That's right, five big ones to blow any way you like! :D

(But I would suggest you hang onto 'em to feed your kids while you're waiting for unemployment to kick in)

[magic-cat]

Theo, you're such a straight-up good guy, full of both common sense and compassion. It's refreshing.

I'm not sure whether we women should ask you to join our club, or see if you'll let us join yours.

Maybe we can all form a new one, and a new philosophy. No Mars. No Venus. We'll call ourselves something silly, something like... Earth.

"Men and Women are from Earth"

I like the sound of that. It's catchy and unexpected.

[standingstill]

I know a couple of close people to me somewhat like that. One; wants to complain and hear my opinion/solution, but then gets mad at me because it wasn't "supportive". IOW, I did not simply agree with their side.

[pbj12]

MC, I'm trying to write thoughtful and meaningful posts so that one day, I can be a "member" like you and Theo.:p

[Theo!]

Theo, you're such a straight-up good guy, full of both common sense and compassion. It's refreshing.

I'm not sure whether we women should ask you to join our club, or see if you'll let us join yours.

Maybe we can all form a new one, and a new philosophy. No Mars. No Venus. We'll call ourselves something silly, something like... Earth.

"Men and Women are from Earth"

I like the sound of that. It's catchy and unexpected.

I'm also a well-documented weenie. It's in the public record.

I'm going to start my own nation on the Mosquito Coast, where I will invent refrigeration and bring about my own doom.

[magic-cat]

MC, I'm trying to write thoughtful and meaningful posts so that one day, I can be a "member" like you and Theo.:p

If I've ever written a thoughtful or meaningful post, it's accidental, I assure you. :cool:

[ghead1]

I have a hard time with this kind of conversation too, because it's not truly a conversation. I knew a woman who used to go from one disjointed thought to another without ever explaining where she was going or how she was getting there.


oh yeah. that's mr ghead! not so much jumping from one point to another, but just suddenly out of the blue he starts a conversation with "yeah, that should fit in well with the other thing" (or some such). and I sit there and think "OK, did I miss the first part? or, Is this an extension of something we were just talking about 10 minutes ago?..." and basically, he thinks the preface, and assumes I know that he's talking about a plant or whatever that we talked about 3 days ago!

I'm getting used to it, but it's taking a while (18 years!)

[Theo!]

That's exactly what would happen to me ghead, and I found it maddening. At first I tried to just listen for awhile, figuring that eventually I'd hear something that let it all make sense through context. Eventually I had a hard time keeping track of all the details while waiting for that magic moment and gave up. Then I was the bad guy for not paying attention.

[zirelda]

That's exactly what would happen to me ghead, and I found it maddening. At first I tried to just listen for awhile, figuring that eventually I'd hear something that let it all make sense through context. Eventually I had a hard time keeping track of all the details while waiting for that magic moment and gave up. Then I was the bad guy for not paying attention.

I may be one of those people. :o See, the thing is, one thought leads to another which leads to another which leads to another. And it doesn't always happen in what would be considered sequential.

Then again I've often wondered if I'm ADD. That could do it too.

[ghead1]

Well, I can't say I'm without fault here... more frequently I find myself saying "huh?" to something mr ghead says, because I'm daydreaming about something else when he makes a brief comment, and by the time I've tuned in, he's done and I missed it. So I explained yesterday that it's not that I didn't hear that he was talking, but that I missed what was said. It isn't a judgement thing.

It doesn't require that he repeat himself in a very slow, measured way. Just repeat it.

But it's nearly funny, because my dad is very hard of hearing and we are all sick to death of him saying "huh?" and expecting us to repeat everything, when he won't get a hearing aid or anything. So when I say "huh" I cringe, but can't seem to stop myself!

oh, and zirelda, mr g is (most likely) ADHD. He just talks all the time!

[zirelda]

Ok. It's just hard to pay attention that long Ghead. My daughter does the same thing. From the second she wakes up to the moment she finally goes to sleep.....

[willowtree]

...more frequently I find myself saying "huh?" to something mr ghead says, because I'm daydreaming about something else when he makes a brief comment, and by the time I've tuned in, he's done and I missed it.

ACK!!!! I do that all the time. I do daydream, or think a billion things all at once.... and more than once or twice Manfred has looked at me like he's waiting, and I'll blink and say "what?" and he'll reply (with an ever so subtle whine to his voice...) "You don't listen to me..."

... and the thing is, he is absolutely right. I hadn't been listening to him at all, I had already made a decision that what he was going to talk about was not worth my full attention. I hate to admit that, but it is true.

(in my defense, he knows I don't care who the mother of the bass player in the band was and how she is related to the guy who wrote the lyrics for the song that was the inspiration for the movie with the guy who invented.....:confused: )

But I still owe him either a listen, an acknowledgement that he is speaking to me and I'm distracted, or an upfront "I just don't care, honey."

And on top of that, my peri-menopausal memory is giving me issues so I WILL be listening, and trying to file it away in a place where it will be easily retrieved, to no avail. :(

[ghead1]

But I still owe him either a listen, an acknowledgement that he is speaking to me and I'm distracted, or an upfront "I just don't care, honey."
:(


OMG! I finally worked up the nerve to tell him that "I really don't care what kind of muffler Tom's 1957 Chevy needs". After a brief expression of "what? why?" he just laughed and said "I know you don't". But I know less about Tom and his cars lately :p

About as much as he cares whether my friends get a full color or a weave.

[OneMoreTry]

It's got to be a woman thing. There are times my husband is talking and I will be looking straight at him, and all of a sudden realize I have "no idea" what he has been talking about and he will be looking at me waiting for some sort of response and I have to say "what did you just say?" And he'll repeat the last word or two, but I need him to repeat the entire conversation. :o Yikes. Luckily he is a good sport about it because he will usually just laugh at me. And, in my defense, I only have this skill in ability to tune out when the conversation is totally irrelevant (like mr. gheads friends car) ... important issues I am mentally present (along with my physical self). :)

[ghead1]

OMT, are you in that perimenopause fog willow mentioned? I am, and it's made for a real short attention span. It's funny, because I think the stereotypical jokes would have you think that men pay less attention to women than vice versa, but at a certain point... it becomes impossible to concentrate.

as an example, I started this post with a question, then forget the point I was going to make.

more to the point: I used to forget why I was in the file room, now I forget why I am leaving my office. I don't even make it to the file room before I forget why...

what were we talking about?

[Tuffy]

I guess we all have a friend like that. Always something wrong, but no action on making it better. I try not to be a fixer anymore. It just takes too much energy. And there are far better ways for me to spend my energy then trying to help someone who doesn't really want help.

I will often come out and ask people, "what are you looking for from me?" which sounds dumb but I don't want to fall into a trap where I'm trying harder to fix their issues then they are. And just listening really truly is enough for many people, I think they want to be heard and the act of being heard allows them to vent some emotion or churn an issue which may allow them to come up with a solution to their problem.

Of course then there are other people who never seem to fix anything and talk about the same things over and over again without an end in sight. I sort of avoid them after while, sort of seeing them in measured doses.

[SeptMorn]

I'll tell you, you "fixers" can really stress us "listeners" out. And I am not saying you do this, but just to offer a different side, a lot of people who will offer fixes are like :eek: really in your face. And its hard for some of us to establish those boundaries while you are beating us with your solutions ;)

And there is really like a middle of the road here, where you offer suggestions or fixes and move on when its dismissed and realize that there really is just a vent going on. And you could be doing this, or not being given the clues.

But some people refuse to pick up on those clues. Which makes making one's point more important than listening and paying attention to the non-verbal communication that is going on. And again, I am not saying any of you guys do this. I have never been uncomfortable having a conversation with Willow for example.

But if I say "My car was stolen and i fell on ice and broke my foot, but its all ok" This is just me coming to terms with a really miserable situation that you can't fix but it makes me feel better to make light of it... And I do that alot, and I am prone to inappropraite laughter in uncomforable situations. I don't know why I do that, i just do. And I am as well adjusted as any other adult I think...

And i dunno, you could be completely right on with your analysis, but I can say I have crawled into a shell because someone was offering a solution that was stressing me out.

Anyway, just my two cents. :)

[ghead1]

good point Sept. I tend to be a fixer, just my style, but I used to get really offended if the recipient of my wonderful advice didn't just jump right in and take my suggestions! I've managed to evolve, to being able to with just listen, or offer ideas and not be invested in whether or not the idea is used.

"I can say I have crawled into a shell because someone was offering a solution that was stressing me out. "

good way to put it! I know when I'm in a vent-only mood and I start getting advice... it's a real buzz-kill to my vent. :-)

Maybe a necklace, with two sides to it: one-way and two-way. Just so ya know how this conversation is going to go :-) Reminds me of the Zelandoni in Shelters of Stone who wore a special necklace: the blank side was turned outward when she was meditating and not accepting questions or conversation.

[OneMoreTry]

OMT, are you in that perimenopause fog willow mentioned? I am, and it's made for a real short attention span. It's funny, because I think the stereotypical jokes would have you think that men pay less attention to women than vice versa, but at a certain point... it becomes impossible to concentrate.

as an example, I started this post with a question, then forget the point I was going to make.

more to the point: I used to forget why I was in the file room, now I forget why I am leaving my office. I don't even make it to the file room before I forget why...

what were we talking about?

Ghead - I don't know if it is a perimenopause fog, or just boredom with certain conversations, or just having too much on my mind (at times) that certain conversations/situations make it easy for me to zone out. At 37, I am hoping perimenopause symptoms would not be happening yet, but who knows - it could be! My oldest sister (who is 10 years older than me) is going through menopause, and her memory is so bad it is almost frightening! There are times during the course of a 30 minute phone conversation that she will tell me the same story 3 times. I tell her she acts like our Grandmother use to when she was 90 years old and diagnosed with dementia. :) Isn't there some herb or something I have read about that is suppose to help with memory??

[ghead1]

yeahj, but I forget what it is :confused:

Gingko Biloba.

Actually 37 is young, but the pre-part can last for years! Don't shoot the messenger :o

[willowtree]

I'm just so glad to hear it's not just me, especially with my Mom having Alzheimer's so young.

I scare myself silly sometimes, but the doctor says "normal" so until I can hide my own Easter eggs, I guess I'll take her word.

[mumsie]

I scare myself silly sometimes, but the doctor says "normal" so until I can hide my own Easter eggs, I guess I'll take her word.

ROFL willow!:D

I think many of us who have "memory problems" really have "too much on our plate problems".

[ghead1]

that was a lot of the feedback I got onthe OLD site on my work/mind mess post. too much on the plate. juggling running chainsaws.

Knowing others face the same issue doesn't "help" per se, but it does make me less scared that I'm losing my mind.

[Tuffy]

I think part of my problem at times with my attention is my poor sleep. Which my doctor told me was part of my age.

What does that young whippersnapper know anyway.

[moogg]

Good topic!

I know there are times when I need a kick in the a**, and times when I just want to vent. If my friends could only read my mind and figure out which mood I am in. :D

I think as friends we do have to listen, but at times it does get tiring listening to the same old "vents" and not see the person taking action. I am sure my friends would say say same about me.

It's one of those no win situations at times, I think.

[zuzuzu]

I think my perception of the severity of the issue my friend was talking about was part of why I might have been more forceful than appropriate (to her). Her D has 3 kids and is recently divorced and remarried. Two of the kids are with their dad and D has the other one. The ex is bitter because the D cheated on him during the marriage. D moved 2 hrs away from the ex and her 2 kids upon her remarriage. The issue now is that the ex isn't showing up with the kids for their scheduled visitation with their mom. My friend was angry at the ex for this; I agreed that that is a situation that should not be occurring. OTOH, the primary concern (I thought) was the 2 kids who are not being allowed to see their mom. I suggested that D might need to do the 4-hr round trip to get her kids, in spite of the fact that the ex is supposed to be helping. I was told that D can't afford to go to a lawyer and that is why the issue of failed visitation hasn't been addressd. Also, no CS for a year. I then suggested that D look into legal clinics that might be able to help at lower cost than a private attorney.

Perhaps the issue isn't important in a "listening" vs commenting question. OTOH, I hated to think that those kids might not have an advocate due to money, or that they don't see their mom because mom is trying to "force" dad to drive 2 hrs. If mom refuses to drive to get her kids to "punish" dad, then it is the kids who suffer.

I admit I am less likely to just "listen" in situations like this. I confess I probably came on strong, saying that I hate to think that there is no lawyer available to protect the kids and the D for CS. Some people give up easily and then lay blame. I don't have much tolerance for that approach to life.

So the "hey, my D hasn't gotten CS in a year and she doesn't see the 2 kids who are with the ex" but "hey, it's OK" didn't get an emphathetic response from me. More like "sounds like something needs to happen here" and "I am sure that there are ways around the obstacles". So yeah, I was trying to "fix" it .....

[2ndWind]

I don't see how you could have listened to your friend and NOT offered advice. It doesn't sound as if she was just venting. I would have done the same thing you had: offered an opinion and a probable solution to her problem. I have to be honest; when I was going through my divorce, I had only one friend who'd been through a divorce and I solicited her advice often. I was very grateful for it. Obviously, we're all different. From what you've mentioned about your friend, she's extremely sensitive and fairly passive in her communication, which has got to be frustrating in your friendship with her. We all have our high-maintenance friends. I would definitely not feel bad about this; I think you've gone out of your way to show that you care about her. (And maybe she's learning something from you in terms of healthy communication...she was able to confront you with how she felt.)

[SeptMorn]

Actually with that added information, I am surprised myself that conversation ended with her the way it did. That was good advise. And i would be inclined to give that kind of advise as well.

There are some people too (and i don't know if this is your friend, but in general), but there are some people who live in misery. Everything is horrible, and nothing fixable. Very hard to deal with as well.

[pbj12]

Some people give up easily and then lay blame. I don't have much tolerance for that approach to life.

Me either!


zuzu, I'm not sure you were even trying to fix it. Sounds more to me like you were advocating getting off their butts and doing something about the situation instead of playing "oh, woe as me."

rachel

[zuzuzu]

Thanks, guys, for the feedback.

I think I'm actually angry at my girlfriend who seemed to be trying to lay blame on me for my responses. She also said that the other ladies at the table weren't commenting and pointed out that I was the only person dwelling on the issue. She asked me "where was this coming from" as if I had issues that were coming up in the conversation. Just as likely that I was the only person commenting because the other ladies were never divorced and also never had kids. Thus, I had the experience that no one else at the gathering had. Also likely that my input was "coming from" a place of experience that was not clouded by emotion, as she was.

Don't imply that i have "issues" simply because I'm speaking up and suggesting that there are things that *can* be done to improve things.

I don't think I want to be "friends" with this lady very much..... There is too much drama and I don't want to have to apologize and defend myself so much. She is a sweet lady but I think there are undercurrents of things that are bigger than I am willing to get involved with. Superficial friendships aren't so bad, as long as that's all I expect from the friendship.

I think I need to trust my gut. I'm not comfortable with this relationship, and it's not because I'm avoiding anything that *should* be dealt with. I think I'm avoiding it because it's rather unhealthy and I don't want to go there.....

[SeptMorn]

You know, zuzu you have every right to chose your friends, and if you are not comfortable with this woman, and who you feel you need to be when you are around her, that is completely appropriate.

I have had friends who were so miserable that I wanted to slit my wrists when I was around them. Unhealthy is unhealthy and life is too short.

[zirelda]

And Misery loves company and all that stuff. Some people just want to be unhappy. No matter how hard you try, there just ain't no bright side.

[ambrosia]

I posted on another thread and found myself walking a fine line between emphathy/listening and offering ideas on what to do in a situation. I'm sensitive right now because I was contacted yesterday by a dear girlfriend who was angry with me for being "judgmental, critical" and for "needing to fix things".

...In a nutshell, I think my friend has some significant boundary issues and she was trying to blame me. I apolo
gized for my apparent judgmental and "fix it" stance; however, deep down I don't think I did anything wrong. Can I learn something here that I need to learn? I'm open!

I was venting but also am open to responses ..... just so you know!!

zuzu, this is about your girlfriend, you're making it about you. She may be angry becaused you told her a truth she wasn't willing to accept.

But, in case she felt you were judgemental, you've already apologized. So, why are you worrying about this? If she's a true friend, she will get over it. If she won't or can't get over it, I would question the friendship. Even if you were judgemental, you're human. We all make mistakes and if she can't/won't trust you after this, that's her bad.

You could revisit the issue later after tempers have cooled down. You have a right to express your opinions just like she does/did. If she's not willing to be reasonable, what does that tell you?...

[magic-cat]

You know, zuzu you have every right to chose your friends, and if you are not comfortable with this woman, and who you feel you need to be when you are around her, that is completely appropriate.




I agree wholeheartedly with that, Sept.

So it makes me wonder what it is about most of us that makes us feel as though we're obligated to stay friends with someone even if it's at a loss of ourself. What is it about certain friendships -- and not even "good" friendships -- that feels like we've signed a lifelong contract?

[ambrosia]

I think I need to trust my gut. I'm not comfortable with this relationship, and it's not because I'm avoiding anything that *should* be dealt with. I think I'm avoiding it because it's rather unhealthy and I don't want to go there.....

If there is nothing to be gained in terms of pleasure from a relationship, there's no reason to be in it, whether that be a romantic relationship or a friendship relationship.

I agree with you about trusting your gut; instinct will rarely lead you wrong. That's something that's taken me awhile to realize, and it was because I didn't trust myself. Your instinct will tell you what's right for you.

Unhealthy? No Way.

[lizzie]

I posted on another thread and found myself walking a fine line between emphathy/listening and offering ideas on what to do in a situation. I'm sensitive right now because I was contacted yesterday by a dear girlfriend who was angry with me for being "judgmental, critical" and for "needing to fix things".

Apparently, she shared a certain difficult situation. I listened but then did switch to "idea" mode. I try VERY hard not to say "you should", "you need to..." but rather pad my thoughts with "perhaps you could" or "have you thought about". My language still was too strong, in her view.


I think it's perfectly acceptable to offer suggestions to someone when they come to you with a problem. And it's perfectly acceptable for that person to say to you, "I don't want solutions; I just want to complain" (which is what I tell my husband when I just want to complain about something and don't want him to try to fix it). But then it's perfectly acceptable for YOU to say, "Then you won't mind if I do something else while you're venting" or "Then you won't mind if I cut this conversation off because I really do have things to do and your venting makes me uncomfortable". Or whatever else you want to say. Frankly, when someone is blowing off steam, especially if it's about the same thing over and over and over again, I have a really hard time being the one who has the steam blown all over me yet again about the same stupid thing that could easily be changed.

There's one thing about being ready to help a friend, and another thing about being a venting patsy. Muhahahaha.