Hooray, New Jersey!

[lizzie]

Corzine has just signed a bill to abolish the death penalty.

[ghead1]

Isn't that great! :D

[m-over-m]

Let's just hope that those people who have committed some horrifically brutal crimes don't ever see the light of day outside of a prison.

[Legal Editor]

Michigan has not had the death penalty for many years.

Legal Editor

[steamy]

Being a Jersey girl~~Hooray, Hooray for the big N J

Ditto M-O-M on this. I don't support the death penalty (nor abortion), but hope they live out their days humbly...No cable TV or internet access for starters...

[lexicon]

Personnally, if we lived in a perfect world, we would have no need for the death penalty. That said, we don't live in a perfect world. When a man takes a 9 year old girl and tortures her, rapes her and buries her alive, I think he deserves the death penalty. In fact, if someone is incarcerated for heinious crimes against humanity, killing and murdering others (Saddam comes to mind),...I'm glad he's dead.

This NJ decision may make the "do-gooders" feel better, but frankly, the death sentance is well deserved for many.

[PoignéeUnique]

I commend New Jersey for providing a safe and secure environment in which New York mobsters can bring their victims to whack and dispose of. I'm sure that New Jersey expects a well-deserved influx of busloads of mobsters bringing tourist dollars as well as rolled-up squirming carpets.

[PoignéeUnique]

Seriously, though, the death penalty has never been shown to be any sort of deterrent and moreover, it costs a LOT of money (primarily in legal appeals) to execute a typical U.S. deathrow inmate - far more than it would cost to simply keep them locked up.

I think it even more important to consider that innocent men have, in fact, been executed by the State in error. What kind of civilization would knowingly take that risk?

[poolman]

I'm in favor of the death penalty if there is no doubt whatsoever. Like the guy that shot up the courtroom in Atlanta. Why feed them and house them for another 40 years?

[Booktender]

Dear PU:

Is this method of carrying a still-squirming live body more or less messy than carrying a previously-live non-squirming body?

Just curious, no particular reason.

Yours,
Stanley Steemer
Used Carpet Sales my specialty!

[Booktender]

I find one less death penalty state to be a great spiritual relief. The death penalty is decided upon and performed by human beings. As human beings, we have a right, maybe even a responsibility to protect ourselves and others from such behavior.

Being human, we will make mistakes. As long as there is the slightest possibility of a mistake in any case then no death penalty should be available. No temptation to use it.

I have never heard of a study that proves it is a deterrent murder. Face it, if someone is that determined to kill, the consequences are not on his or her mind.

Even if it was, if there is the smallest possibility of a mistake...No, my spirit can not take it.

[lexicon]

Yesssiree, it makes a lot of sense to incarcerate non-violent criminals in the same cell with murderers and violent crime perpetrators. The US has the largest inmate population (7 million) in the world, 2nd only to China, who has 4 times the US population. Currently Califa. prison budget will exceed expenditures for their school budget. BTW, have you been in a prison lately?

I know, everyone hears about the retraining, and inmates have a cell to themselves,...blah, blah, blah. Basically US prisons are reknown for taking non-violent inmates and converting them to be violent criminals.

So you want to pay to keep a convicted murderer housed safely in prison for 20-50 years? Not me.

But everyone is entitled to their opinion. I bet you guys don't protest to euthanizing stray abandoned dogs.

Do the crime,...do the time or hang from a noose.

[CheroCreek]

I have mixed feelings on the subject. there are some cases where the death penalty seems the right way to go as long as there is absolutely no doubt of any sort as to the guilt of the offender of a violent crime.

The problem is that I believe it is possible that up to 25% of all inmates, and that includes death row inmates, are not guilty of the crimes for which they have been convicted. I've seen too many "rush to judgments" and several of them turned out to be dead wrong.

[ghead1]

Bookie, your words sum up my feelings exactly.

[lexicon]

For example,...what to do with Drew Petterson? "If" he killed his first wife, and Stacy. Just lock him up for 40 years?

I don't like the death penalty any more than anyone else, but our prison system is out of control, the cost is huge and growing.

[ghead1]

Lexi, this isn't an issue I argue lightly...

I think there are better responses to our prison situation than killing people. Honestly, if too many people crowded into one place is a problem worth killing over, I could recommend wholesale slaughter in many places of our world. (Perhaps starting with Washington DC? just kidding)

Our prisons are overcrowded in most part due to legislative decisions regarding: drug use, sentencing guidelines, and the three strikes initiative. Restoring common sense to our drug policy, and putting judicial decisions back in the hands of the judiciary would go a long way towards solving the conditions you describe.

[lexicon]

I'm not seeking to argue ghead. We have different opinions and I certainly don't condem you for yours. Why don't you ask the parents of Jessica, who was brutally tortured, raped, and murdered how they feel. I think the father of Jesica did forgive the guy.

I'm not as tolerent of murder as others.

Yes, our prison system is in crisis mode. Our prisons are way out of control. I'm not saying to kill people to help prisons. I'm saying the punishment is deserving of the crime. If some guy/girl murders, tortures, rapes, kills,...well, they deserve the same treatment.

[kara.]

Lexi, I doubt anyone considers themselves to be "tolerant of murder". There are parents and spouses of people who have been murdered who do favor the death penalty as well as those who do not. I don't think the latter group loves their children less or feels things less.

[lexicon]

I don't think the latter group loves their children less or feels things less.

Kara, did I say people, who oppose the death penalty love their children less or feel less? No. I believe I never implied such a concept.

Oddly enough, my 76 year old mother believes they should take the guy, who tortured/murdered Jessica and string him up between two ropes, one attached "one" place" and the other around his neck and yank A LOT.

[Booktender]

Lexi - I've been in a family where family members were both the murdered and the murderers. I secretly spent a lot of my childhood praying over this. Let me tell you. The parents ache as bad for the kid who died as for the kid who lived. Mutual friends, the same. Killing to avenge the feelings of the murdered person's family is barbaric.

You seem really concerned about prison costs. What brought that up?

edit: None of my brothers or hypothetical sisters were involved. It was a little more removed than that. And in 1966.

[lexicon]

Why is the current state and expense of US prisons of a concern to me? If no-one has looked, I can tell you the conditions are deplorable. 1 in 20 inmates is raped or sexually abused. 1 in 142 people in the US is in prison today. If a man/woman is sent to prison, it's likely at some date they will be released. Sending a non-violent criminal to prison today is a sure ticket to be educated in the latest, best crime tactics.

I believe our prison system is on the verge of a major breakdown, even where the state and federal goverment is contracting out the security to private contractors. Note: 2 dangerous and armed inmates escaped from MD or NJ, no I think NJ,...in fact.

The yearly cost per inmate is about $19,000 X 7 million,...you do the math. It's not only the money. It's the abuse, cramped quarters, poor food, idle time, rape, drug abuse. This is an issue that isn't going away. In fact, the US prison population is growing at an alarming rate.

What brought up the topic of prisons? Well, any inmate in the US is going to reside in prison, whether on death row or not. I don't expect a vacation or joy ride for inmates, but abuse shouldn't the other option.

I believe inmates should be counseled, educated marginally at least, IF they are going to be released back into public life and not return to prison. It may be a topic people are not interested in addressing, but someone had better because these guys are being released early more so lately due to overcrowding.

I'm not interested in killing anyone. Face it Charles Manson would get few tears from me, if executed. I'm referring to hardened, cut-throat, evil murderers. I understand chero's feeling of being conflicted over the death penalty. What if the guy was framed or really isn't guilty?

Most people are on death row for a darn good reason.

Sorry for your friends and family, who experienced whatever tragedy befell them Booktender.

[lizzie]

Why is the current state and expense of US prisons of a concern to me? If no-one has looked, I can tell you the conditions are deplorable. 1 in 20 inmates is raped or sexually abused. 1 in 142 people in the US is in prison today. If a man/woman is sent to prison, it's likely at some date they will be released. Sending a non-violent criminal to prison today is a sure ticket to be educated in the latest, best crime tactics.

I believe our prison system is on the verge of a major breakdown, even where the state and federal goverment is contracting out the security to private contractors. Note: 2 dangerous and armed inmates escaped from MD or NJ, no I think NJ,...in fact.

The yearly cost per inmate is about $19,000 X 7 million,...you do the math. It's not only the money. It's the abuse, cramped quarters, poor food, idle time, rape, drug abuse. This is an issue that isn't going away. In fact, the US prison population is growing at an alarming rate.

What brought up the topic of prisons? Well, any inmate in the US is going to reside in prison, whether on death row or not. I don't expect a vacation or joy ride for inmates, but abuse shouldn't the other option.

I believe inmates should be counseled, educated marginally at least, IF they are going to be released back into public life and not return to prison. It may be a topic people are not interested in addressing, but someone had better because these guys are being released early more so lately due to overcrowding.

I'm not interested in killing anyone. Face it Charles Manson would get few tears from me, if executed. I'm referring to hardened, cut-throat, evil murderers. I understand chero's feeling of being conflicted over the death penalty. What if the guy was framed or really isn't guilty?

Most people are on death row for a darn good reason.

Sorry for your friends and family, who experienced whatever tragedy befell them Booktender.


So, we don't like to pay to house prisoners, so let's kill them. I assume you don't particularly like to pay to house drug addicts. Let's kill them too. Then there are the homeless who get free medical care. Off with their heads. The poor on welfare - kill them too.

Sorry, but it is my opinion is that we have to care for all of our citizens - even those who are poor, sick, mentally ill, addicted, mean, evil, and for a variety of reasons that no-one has bothered to figure out, criminals.

There's an interesting book called freakonomics. People are up in arms about it. But it brings up a very important point - that the number of criminals decreased sharply in 1990. It could not be accounted for by the increase of police on the streets. The book goes through a long discussion of possible reasons for the decrease in crime, but finally concludes that it is primarily due to abortion becoming legal in the early 1970s. And think about it. How many unwanted children were NOT born who didn't live with parents who were did not want them and were not the dispossessed with no parental love.

Do you really think that a murderer grows up thinking - hm, career choices, I think I'll choose murderer. Something is very, very wrong in their lives. But I don't see anyone trying to figure it out, or trying to fix it. Lots of people talk about how horrible prison is (and I'm sure that it is), but if the choice is life or kill them, I'll always be on the side of removing them from the general population. Maybe we should improve the prison system.

Nursing homes can be overcrowded and awful. I don't see anyone suggesting killing the old folks.

[Booktender]

I agree that there should be more rehabilitation done for those in prison. And not just throwing library services at them so they can become jailhouse lawyers. Or religion. Big picture stuff as well as individualized stuff. How that would be affordable is far beyond my imagination. The concept can live in my imagination. But the how to? Yikes!

Getting back to the original topic, life in prison is still cheaper than the price to taxpayer from all the appeals that any citizen should have. Price-savings are not an argument for keeping the death penalty on the table.

[willowtree]

As Bookie reminded me of the "jailhouse lawyer" I know of (you all remember my brother's tale, I'm sure?) and in the spirit of Christmas ala "It's a Wonderful Life"...

You all remember how my brother's ex left him for a guy who was released from prison after 18 years in the slammer for attacking a neighborhood with a machine gun. No, he did not kill anyone (miraculously) nor was he on death row. But he was a bad-ass prisoner who was let out and met my SIL soon after she lost her baby to a dreadful disease, and who then left my bro. And on top of that, got her pregnant so that my nephews got a baby brother by this guy. This baby brother was born with the same dreadful disease, now known to be genetic and the mom the carrier.

Two years later, the baby is relatively healthy. Not because he got a less deadly form - no, he was on death's door and was going to die, for sure. Because, you see, the only thing that could make him better was a bone marrow transplant, and his genetic makeup was so rare that it was almost impossible to find a match.

But this guy, this ex-prisoner, this bad-ass, used all the tools he had learned in prison - he got in the face of every doctor, he strong-armed charity organizations, he got himself on TV and in the papers and even got his baby on a billboard in Boston. His persistance and will to survive via his genes started a pledge to get 75,000 donors signed up.

He didn't make it to 75,000 last I heard. But he was over 40,000. And of those 40,000 at least ten donors were contacted as matches for other kids and adults. Ten people are alive today because of this man (who I still despise and is still a jerk, IMO). Make that 11.... because even though his baby didn't find a bone marrow match, the doctors were able to match umbilical cord blood instead, and it worked. The baby is not fully healthy still, because the disease is debilitating, but he is alive and has a good chance.

So 11 people. Who knows what will become of them or how THEY will change other lives. And so I fully believe that ALL humans have at least the potential for good, for salvation, for being worthy of the life that was given to them and that we as faulty humans cannot take away.

NOT that there aren't stories I hear which make me want to say "just kill him", because there are. But I can think it, and still know that we as a civil society cannot make that decision.